Flyby News Home - Flyby News Archives - Casinni NoFlyby - Flyby Links

Flyby  News

"News Fit to Transmit in the Post Cassini Flyby Era"

Kucinich on CNN Crossfire * War Against Ourselves

27 February 2003

1) CNN CrossFires with Dennis Kucinich
2) The War Against Ourselves
An Interview with Major Doug Rokke

Editor's Notes:

CNN's Crossfire featured Dennis Kucinich, and nothing but the word "hot" adequately describes the interchange and debate. "..You know what, as president, I will be independent and be able to challenge the corporate interests who right now control a good part of the Democratic party." Item 1 includes the transcript of this interview, dealing with all sorts of issues including abortion. Kucinich is determined to expand his conviction for pro-democracy, pro-life, and pro-choice. He fervently will defend the Constitutional Right for a woman to choose an abortion for herself, and is alarmed by current trends against our civil liberties. You can visit the Kucinich web site for his statement on many issues, and learn more about his efforts to stop an unjust war. At the end of this item, make sure you find the link for ==>

Kucinich, the boy Mayor of Cleveland, Ohio, is quite simply an inspiration for most everyone young at heart. The children of the world don't want to see other children of the world dead in streets, or their moms or dads, or to see families in refugee camps, suffering from Depleted Uranium and other illnesses. Kucinich is leading the opposition to the proposed Bush war, which is irresponsible, unjustified, expensive, chaos-producing, children killing.. This so-called preemptive war is better described by the title of the next item, "The War Against Ourselves."

Item 4 features an interview of Major Doug Rokke and his experiences from studying Depleted Uranium. Uranium is often mined in places known as sacred by indigenous people. Yet the processing, separating, the technical manipulation of enriching uranium for radioactive qualities is evil-doing, which could remain destructive beyond the life of humanity. Instead of recognizing this, the US is preparing to make war on a weakened people, with no evidence of a nuclear program, while at the same time, North Korea begins operation of its nuclear power plant to produce enriched uranium. In a previous Flyby News we learned that Rumsfeld was on the Board of a Corporation involved in providing nuclear technologies to North Korea in the 1990's. The UN has little time but to act to save us from a bizarre military regime and administration. Your encouragement of the UN in supporting a 'Uniting for Peace' initiative could enable the German-France plan to effectively prevent a US invasion, and to successfully contain and disarm Iraq's potential weapons of mass destruction.

Thanks for reading, acting, and caring.

Time is short, but lasting within a moment.

1) CNN CrossFires with Dennis Kucinich

CNN CROSSFIRE - Interview With Dennis Kucinich

Aired February 21, 2003 - 1900 ET



On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala.

On the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.

In the CROSSFIRE, he's one of the most outspoken liberals on Capital Hill, and one of the fiercest opponents of a war with Iraq.

REP. DENNIS KUCINICH (D) OHIO: This administration has been spoiling for a war with Iraq, whether or not there's been any evidence at all.

ANNOUNCER: Is there any evidence he has a chance of moving into the White House?

The Bush administration plays "Let's Make a Deal" with a Middle East ally.

ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE SPOKESMAN: This is a serious matter and our good friend and ally, Turkey, is taking it seriously.

ANNOUNCER: Seriously, is this anyway to prepare for a war?

BEGALA: Every presidential candidate knows there's an obligatory stop on the road to the White House, the first toll booth on that road, right here on CROSSFIRE.

Tonight, Ohio Congressman Dennis Kucinich gets ready to take his turn. And later, Turkey tells the Bush administration "show me the money." We will debate who's going to get the best out of that deal.

Stay with us.


BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.

Promising to be the people's president and live in what he calls a worker's White House, Ohio Congressman Dennis Kucinich this week formed a presidential exploratory committee.

Mr. Kucinich was once the mayor of Cleveland. He's among a handful of lawmakers who has filed suit to stop the Bush administration from going to war with Iraq. He told voters in Iowa that his first act as president would be to repeal the North America Free Trade Agreement.

Tonight, presidential candidate Dennis Kucinich steps into the CROSSFIRE.

KUCINICH: Good to see you again.

NOVAK: Congressman Kucinich, I want to start off by asking you about a quote which is attributed to you, and we're going to put it up on the screen, and see if you actually said it -- I want you to explain it.

"It would be a cold day and probably a snowy day in hell before a liberal Democrat could back to the White House, but it looks like my time has arrived."

What does that mean?

KUCINICH: Well, that meant that when I arrived in Iowa, they had a snow storm that hit the city, and when I heard the report was covered in Washington, snow storm hit this city, so my time is here. Thanks.

NOVAK: Do you think it's time for somebody as far to the left as you are to get into the White House?

KUCINICH: Well, you know, when I was playing baseball when I was a kid, I could throw with either hand, and I can tell you that the American people want someone who is familiar with the scope of the political debate from both sides, but who's dedicated towards a transformation of our politics that deals with healthcare, education, retirement security, jobs, doing something about our trade deficit, and the kind of change the Franklin Roosevelt brought to this country in 1932.

NOVAK: Congressman Kucinich, there's one thing I used to admire you for. You are a pro-life liberal. You had a perfect, 100 percent anti-abortion voting record, and last year you completely switched. You didn't vote for a ban of partial birth abortion and other proposals you voted against. What -- were you -- do you think to get in the Democratic Party now you have to be pro-abortion?

KUCINICH: Not at all. I think that one who leads and who intends to lead from an even higher office has to show a capacity for growth. And as you pointed out, I was...

NOVAK: You changed. You did a switch-over.

KUCINICH: No, I expanded my view, Bob. Because what I believe is this -- this is a very divisive debate, and I think that it's important to simultaneously affirm that a woman has a right to choose under the constitution, and at the same time work, as I have my whole life, to see that abortions are not necessary by having sex education and birth control and then prenatal care, postnatal care and childcare.

NOVAK: But you voted for every single anti-abortion proposal in the Ohio legislature.

KUCINICH: My voting record is clear, and you're right about that, but I will tell you this, there is a move on in the Congress today to try to criminalize abortion, to repeal Roe v. Wade. I've never been for a constitutional amendment that would overturn Roe v. Wade.

I think that we need to have someone who can take a unifying position, who said that we'll do everything we can to make abortions less necessary and at the same time to protect a woman's right to choose, which is constitutionally protected.

So I think that it's possible to take that kind of acrimonious debate and try to heal this nation so that we're not divided and that we can accomplish two things, and that is, protecting life within the constitution and making sure that a woman's right to choose is also protected.

BEGALA: Let me ask you now about a more fundamental issue than that, and that is experience, qualifications. We now know the price of the on-the-job training in the Oval Office. We used to have peace and prosperity. We put a guy in there who wasn't experienced or qualified, and look what happened.

You've got two years as the mayor of Cleveland, two years in the Ohio state senate, six years in the Congress. Is that enough experience to be the president of the United States?

KUCINICH: Well, actually, my political experience goes back to 1967 and my first race for office in the city of Cleveland. I served in the Cleveland City Council. I served as clerk of the Cleveland courts. I served as mayor of Cleveland. I served in the Ohio senate, and I've served at every level of government: local, state, and federal.

I've served in executive and legislative and a quasi-judicial office. I actually have broader experience in government than anybody in this race.

BEGALA: You mentioned Franklin Roosevelt a moment before. He had been the governor of a state, the assistant secretary of the Navy, he had run for vice president of the United States. He brought a wealth of experience that -- do you think you have the sort of experience FDR had coming into the office?

KUCINICH: Absolutely. Well, you know, I'm not going to compare myself to FDR. What I am saying is that my aspirations for this country would be on the scope of what Franklin Roosevelt brought to this country in 1932 when he saw a nation that was broken economically. He looked for a dramatic restructuring of the government to make sure that government served the people, not the corporations. To make sure that government produced jobs instead of let the corporations run the economy and result in cutting jobs. To make sure that retirement security was guaranteed and to do something about uplifting the quality of life for every American.

That's the kind of president I aspire to be, and I will tell you, if I get the nomination, I will bring in a whole Democratic Congress with me, if they follow that platform.

NOVAK: Congressman Kucinich, CNN/"TIME" took a poll this week of the nine candidates for the Democratic nomination for president. We'll take a look at it. You know who was dead last? Dennis Kucinich. Dead last. Carol Moseley-Braun, who was in disgrace in Illinois with scandals, she was defeated for reelection, has twice as much support as you have.

KUCINICH: This is great news. You know, I got 2 percent without even filing my petition. That's great.

NOVAK: Doesn't that show that you've got tremendous problems?

KUCINICH: Well, you know, Bill Clinton was at 1 percent when he started. Jimmy Carter was at 1 percent. I mean, the American people wait for a campaign, and when I bring my campaign to the American people, you're going to see my support rise.

We're already seeing on this Web site that I've established, , people from 47 states contacted us the first day saying they wanted to help. It's a grassroots campaign. That's what will cause the numbers to go up.

BEGALA: You mentioned President Clinton. When he was Gov. Clinton and I went to work for him in 1991, he had 12 years as a governor and a host of accomplishments.

You're running against a field, your colleagues in the Congress particularly, who have a good deal of accomplishment. Joe Lieberman helped write the Homeland Security Bill, and John Edwards is a big proponent of the Patient's Bill of Rights. Dick Gephardt leads on taxes and trade and other issues.

What legislative accomplishment do you point to as a source of pride and accomplishment for you?

KUCINICH: Well, I would say that I've worked on, as a chairman of the Progressive Caucus, I've worked on saving the position of Social Security when some in our own party were talking about working towards privatizing it. I led the way in challenging NAFTA, which I said and did say that it will be my first act in office to cancel it and return to bilateral trade, which has workers rights, human rights and environmental quality principles.

I was able to work with President Clinton to get him to state in Seattle that he would abide by those kind of trading principles. I led the way in the Congress to organize 126 Democrats, almost 2/3 of the Democratic caucus, to vote against the war in Iraq, this Iraq resolution.

So I will say this, that what I have been able to demonstrate is that I can come right off the floor of the Congress without any kind of official position within the party structure and organize and lead, and the kind of leader that I'll be as a president is one from the grassroots up.

NOVAK: Congressman, I've got a question I've got to ask you before we take a break. You may not remember this, but 24 years ago I interviewed you when you were the mayor of Cleveland.

KUCINICH: I do remember that.

NOVAK: And you had been in office seven months, and there was already a recall election out for you, and I asked...

KUCINICH: I remember that.

NOVAK: And I asked who was trying to recall you, and you said "Real estate and banking, the privately owned electric utility, the regular Democratic party of Cuyahoga County and organized crime, mostly."

Are those people all still against you?

KUCINICH: You know what, as president, I will be independent and be able to challenge the corporate interests who right now control a good part of the Democratic party.

NOVAK: You didn't say no to what I asked you, did you?

KUCINICH: Well, Bob, come on. I mean, look...

BEGALA: We have a few seconds -- we we're going to hold you over for the next segment too, but I want to ask you this very important question: if you're president, when will you commit U.S. troops -- you mentioned you oppose the war in Iraq. You opposed President Clinton's war in Kosovo as well.

We'll have to ask you that when we come back, I'm sorry.

NOVAK: All right, Iraq's vice president today offered to open a dialogue with the United States if the United States stops threatening to make war.

In a minute, we'll debate Iraq policy with Dennis Kucinich and a Republican congressman who, believe it or not, is not interested in running for president.


NOVAK: President Bush called U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan this morning and told him the U.N. Security Council is playing an important role in the Iraq situation, and the United States will continue to work with it.

A new Iraq resolution is expected to be introduced Monday. Meanwhile, Iraq is suddenly interested in opening a dialogue with the Bush administration.

Democratic president candidate Dennis Kucinich, a Democratic congressman from Ohio, remains in the CROSSFIRE. And joining us, from New York City, is Republican Congressman Vito Fossella.

BEGALA: Congressman Fossella, thank you for joining us, sir.

Before the break, I was asking Congressman Kucinich when America should commit troops. Governor Bush -- then governor, in one of the presidential debates, was asked about this. Here's what he said, when he said he would commit troops and how. I want you to listen and then respond.


GEORGE W. BUSH, U.S. PRESIDENT: I'm going to be judicious as to how to use the military. It needs to be in our vital interest. The mission needs to be clear, and the exit strategy obvious.

NOVAK: What is wrong with that? If there is United Nations -- if the United Nations Security Council unanimously passes resolution, and the Iraqis don't obey it, what alternative do we have but force?

KUCINICH: Iraq should be disarmed, and I think that Iraq should have a regime where all of the weapons are gone. And I also think that the United Nations has a responsibility to continue inspections. But, having said that, the administration has not made its case to invade Iraq. They haven't -- Bob, they haven't proven that Iraq was connected to 9-11, to al Qaeda's role in 9-11.


NOVAK: What about Iraq not obeying the resolution passed by the United Nations?

KUCINICH: I think that the United Nations is clearly being pushed in the direction of war by the Bush administration. And I also think that that's not in the best interest of the world, that we -- the Bush administration is threatening to destroy the United Nations over this, just as they threatened NATO, just as they are threatening other nations to go along.

I mean, the fact that Turkey is ready to join for what, $26 billion? There's no checkout counter in the world big enough to hold all those nations that are going to get into line to take money from this country in order for us to go into Iraq. And at what cost? At a cost of $1 trillion when we're not meeting all the needs I this country? I don't think so.

BEGALA: Congressman Fossella.

FOSSELLA: I think -- yes. Well, first of, I think...

BEGALA: Go ahead -- congressman.

FOSSELLA: I think the United Nations can serve a purpose, but clearly when it can't enforce its own resolutions -- just a few weeks ago, for example, one of its committees on disarmament, of all things, the chair of that committee was supposed to be Iraq, of all countries.

So I think they do a good enough job of really making themselves somewhat irrelevant, but ultimately what I think we need to do altogether as Americans and those who love freedom and democracy, is to bring an end to this reign of terror so that the American people can live in peace.

You know, we saw on September 11, when terrorist can strike imminent, unexpected, taking the lives of thousands -- too many men and women, many of whom I represent. And I never want to see that again -- I never want to see that again. I never want to see that again. And we should be doing all we can. We should be doing all we can to bring an end to those who harbor terrorists, support terrorists, sponsor terrorism and nations that sponsor terrorism. That is, I believe, the fundamental responsibility.

NOVAK: Let's let Congressman Kucinich in.

KUCINICH: OK. There's a lot of buzz words here, and in the whole campaign to go after Iraq is just made-up of buzz words. It's not made of any facts.

They cannot prove that Iraq had anything to do with 9-11 yet. The day after those planes hit the World Trade Center, according to Bob Woodward in a book, "Bush at War," page 49, Donald Rumsfeld was already talking about attacking Iraq. They're just trying to create a pretext to go after Iraq for any reason whatsoever. They haven't made their case, and yet they're going to cost, you know -- invasion or bombing, invasion, occupation, it's going to cost this economy $1 trillion. We don't have that money. We have money to blow up bridges over the Tigress and Euphrates and we don't have money to build bridges in our major cities.

We have money to destroy the health of the Iraqi people and we don't have enough money to repair the health of our own people in this country. There is something fundamentally wrong with the direction this administration is taking its foreign policy, and I intend to change that if I am elected president of the United States.

BEGALA: Congressman Fossella, let me get to the -- what you just said -- and you used some very, very emotional language about 9-11. I lost friends on that day as well, and Iraq had nothing to do with it whatsoever.

But the argument that you...

FOSSELLA: I don't think you know that at all.

BEGALA: We haven't seen a shred of evidence, sir, with respect. But the argument is, we need a preventive war or this will happen again, that's the gravamen of what you just said. It's what President Bush has been telling us.

Let me read to you from a guy who knew a little something about war, Dwight David Eisenhower, five-star general, general of the army, president of the United States of America. This is what he said about this doctrine of preventive war.

He said, "All of us have heard this term "preventive war" since the earliest days of Hitler. I recall that's about the first time I heard it. In this day and time, I don't believe there is such a thing, and frankly I wouldn't even listen to anyone seriously that came in and talked about such a thing."

Do you know more than Dwight Eisenhower, sir?

FOSSELLA: I never profess to know more than anybody, but all I have is my own judgment. And my judgment is that when -- at the end of the Gulf war, Saddam Hussein agreed to allow unfettered inspections and agreed not to develop weapons of mass destruction. We have evidence, we believe that he has biological, chemical and nuclear weapon capabilities, not that he could only use them but offer -- perhaps offer them with blackmail or, ultimately, to a terrorist organization. I don't want to wake up one day and know that we did nothing about that. And if the next generations of Americans have to live in fear of this...



KUCINICH: And wait a minute. I don't want to wake up one day and see that we have given our civil liberties away in this country to a phony war campaign that's going to go everywhere around the world with an American imperium! I'm not...


NOVAK: We're out of time.


NOVAK... Mr. Kucinich. No time, Mr. Fossella. Congressman (UNINTELLIGIBLE) just one quick question. When the fighting starts and our men and women are in harm's way, will you be continuing to attack this policy, or will you support the troops?

KUCINICH: I support the troops, and I'd say support the troops, get rid of the administration and bring the troops back home!


BEGALA: Congressman Dennis Kucinich, Democrat who's running for president, thank you very much for joining us. Congressman Vito Fossella from New York, thank you, as well, sir.

# # #

For the complete CROSSFIRE transcript online, see:

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
To read the text of Dennis on NBC's "Meet the Press," see:
Transcript for Feb. 23 =>
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

: ) ( :

okay all you kids, or if you know any, pass the word..

For an article on this "kids4K" movement, initiated by Dylan Hallsmith from Vermont see:

Visit Flyby News updated Page -
Dennis J. Kucinich for US President in 2004!,9146,

and for Kucinich for President web site, visit

2) The War Against Ourselves

The War Against Ourselves
An Interview with Major Doug Rokke
FutureNet / Yes!

Doug Rokke has a PhD in health physics and was originally trained as a forensic scientist. When the Gulf War started, he was assigned to prepare soldiers to respond to nuclear, biological, and chemical warfare, and sent to the Gulf. What he experienced has made him a passionate voice for peace, traveling the country to speak out. The following interview was conducted by the director of the Traprock Peace Center, Sunny Miller, supplemented with questions from YES! editors.

QUESTION : Any viewer who saw the war on television had the impression this was an easy war, fought from a distance and soldiers coming back relatively unharmed. Is this an accurate picture?

ROKKE : At the completion of the Gulf War, when we came back to the United States in the fall of 1991, we had a total casualty count of 760: 294 dead, a little over 400 wounded or ill. But the casualty rate now for Gulf War veterans is approximately 30 percent. Of those stationed in the theater, including after the conflict, 221,000 have been awarded disability, according to a Veterans Affairs (VA) report issued September 10, 2002. Many of the US casualties died as a direct result of uranium munitions friendly fire. US forces killed and wounded US forces. We recommended care for anybody downwind of any uranium dust, anybody working in and around uranium contamination, and anyone within a vehicle, structure, or building that's struck with uranium munitions. That's thousands upon thousands of individuals, but not only US troops. You should provide medical care not only for the enemy soldiers but for the Iraqi women and children affected, and clean up all of the contamination in Iraq. And it's not just children in Iraq. It's children born to soldiers after they came back home. The military admitted that they were finding uranium excreted in the semen of the soldiers. If you've got uranium in the semen, the genetics are messed up. So when the children were conceived -- the alpha particles cause such tremendous cell damage and genetics damage that everything goes bad. Studies have found that male soldiers who served in the Gulf War were almost twice as likely to have a child with a birth defect and female soldiers almost three times as likely.

Q: You have been a military man for over 35 years. You served in Vietnam as a bombardier and you are still in the US Army Reserves. Now you're going around the country speaking about the dangers of depleted uranium (DU). What made you decide you had to speak publicly about DU?

ROKKE: Everybody on my team was getting sick. My best friend John Sitton was dying. The military refused him medical care, and he died. John set up the medical evacuation communication system for the entire theater. Then he got contaminated doing the work. John and Rolla Dolph and I were best friends in the civilian world, the military world, forever. Rolla got sick. I personally got the order that sent him to war. We were both activated together. I was given the assignment to teach nuclear, biological, and chemical warfare and make sure soldiers came back alive and safe. I take it seriously. I was sent to the Gulf with this instruction: Bring 'em back alive. Clear as could be. But when I got all the training together, all the environmental cleanup procedures together, all the medical directives, nothing happened. More than 100 American soldiers were exposed to DU in friendly fire accidents, plus untold numbers of soldiers who climbed on and entered tanks that had been hit with DU, taking photos and gathering souvenirs to take home. They didn't know about the hazards. DU is an extremely effective weapon. Each tank round is 10 pounds of solid uranium-238 contaminated with plutonium, neptunium, americium. It is pyrophoric, generating intense heat on impact, penetrating a tank because of the heavy weight of its metal. When uranium munitions hit, it's like a firestorm inside any vehicle or structure, and so we saw tremendous burns, tremendous injuries. It was devastating. The US military decided to blow up Saddam's chemical, biological, and radiological stockpiles in place, which released the contamination back on the US troops and on everybody in the whole region. The chemical agent detectors and radiological monitors were going off all over the place. We had all of the various nerve agents. We think there were biological agents, and there were destroyed nuclear reactor facilities. It was a toxic wasteland. And we had DU added to this whole mess.

When we first got assigned to clean up the DU, and arrived in northern Saudi Arabia, we started getting sick within 72 hours. Respiratory problems, rashes, bleeding, open sores started almost immediately. When you have a mass dose of radioactive particulate and you start breathing that in, the deposit sits in the back of the pharynx, where the cancer started initially on the first guy. It doesn't take a lot of time. I had a father and son working with me. The father is already dead from lung cancer, and the sick son is still denied medical care.

Q: Did you suspect what was happening?

ROKKE: We didn't know anything about DU when the Gulf War started. As a warrior, you're listening to your leaders, and they're saying there are no health effects from the DU. But, as we started to study this, to go back to what we learned in physics and our engineering -- I was a professor of environmental science and engineering -- you learn rapidly that what they're telling you doesn't agree with what you know and observe. In June of 1991, when I got back to the States, I was sick. Respiratory problems and the rashes and neurological things were starting to show up.

For the complete transcript, see:

For more information on DU, visit:

The Wise Uranium Project:

The National Gulf War Resource Center:

Veterans for Common Sense:

Sunny Miller's interview was originally broadcast on WMFO (Boston) in November 2002 and is available for re-broadcast at:

You can also visit Flyby News' updated resource links on Depleted Uranium:,2156,

= = = = = = FLYBY NEWS = = = = =

Email address: